@Siphonay @ConnyDuck AFAIK functionality (or lack thereof) alone does not determine whether software is free or nonfree in the context of FOSS.

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@waweic @Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky @OCRbot instances which are moderated by the minorities themself should still be moderated by the minorities themself, right?
Federalism like this seems to be more important than "lets allow everything, globally". There shall be group who censors everyone else. When every individual can chose by thom they are moderated (possibly themself) then it's preferable.

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@saxnot
I would, by the way, not even call him a fossbro. Essentially, because it seems to me that he is using FOSS as an excuse for his own privileged, shitty and whiny, "politics". I don't know what to call him exactly, but his primary motivation is not free software

@saxnot
Wait, I already wrote that, right? Seems like I am getting tired. But there are still things to add to his assholishness-list, e.g. supporting TERFs

@Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky lol! Ikr? RMS is a really low bar to clear, yet FOSS bros still decided to play limbo instead.

@Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky please don't make "fossbro" a thing 😓

By far not all free software supporters are free speech dogmatics too...

@zge @ConnyDuck @Tusky sigh, the good old "not all X"...

If you support FOSS and are not an asshat (ie aware of the problems of privilege and power dynamics within the FOSS community) you're not targeted by the word fossbro, and if you feel like you are you should ask yourself some questions

@zge @ConnyDuck @Tusky keep in mind that we're talking about supporting Tusky as FOSS here

@Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky "nor all X" or warning against faulty generalisations.

My point is not that I feel targeted -- it's just that terms like these create a discourse were people preemptivly make up their minds in a out-/in-group fashion, just by words like "fossbro" or "techbro" being raised -- all of which degrades the quality/impact of conversations like these.

(btw: Tusky is obviously free software, the play store isn't. But so that it doesn't get excluded, it has to prevent Gab from endangering it's membership, which is a legitimate reason to distribute a "protected/limited" version, just like some people have FS apps you have to pay for in the playstore -- no need to invoke strawmen)

@zge @Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky the admin of fosstodon is a total fossbro actually

@Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky What's a "fossbro" and and how is that supposed to be an insult?

Stallman did more for free software than any of us here. He basically intented it. He convinced linus of making the kernel non-properitary.

"Being a dick as a person" cannot be the ultimate benchmark.

@saxnot @Siphonay @ConnyDuck @Tusky I've noticed that "fossbro" word as well. Like wtf :D I'm not even sure I wanna engage these people to ask them what they mean by it.
@saxnot @ConnyDuck @Siphonay @Tusky another term was "techbro" and I'm like: you're on a computer, on the internet, on the fediverse. what the fuck?

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay the word "techbro" has it's justifications. People who adhere to no ethics and build software which destroys democracies and fuel slave economy (e. g. facebook and uber) are called "techbros".

These "techbro" people are usually white and male.

@saxnot @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay okay, well we're in agreement about facebook employees being evil.
Not so much on the second part.

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay in itself it's not a crime to be white and male. I'm white and consider myself male. But it's bad to be inside a sphere where everyone is white and everyone is male and then building disciminating software which runs the world.

Look at silicon valley. Some of their views on the world are so detached from reality it makes good reason to barf. I'm not talking about these "apps which solves problems which only exist in SF".

@saxnot @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay I'm sure it's entirely possible for a group of people who happen to share certain similarities to create software that isn't evil. 😉
(I wonder where this sentiment to the contrary is coming form)

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay there's a lot of privilege in my industry,

For example, software development is sexist on so many levels. Most people respond with "no i am not sexist" but those people have not understood how deeprooted and widespread it is.

@saxnot @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay Hmm I can understand that.
I wonder what it must have been like to work at Bell Labs in the 70s.
I daresay a rather homogeneous group of people, who managed to change the world for the better. Our world, at least. (The tech-world)

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay idk about bell labs.

But I know that back in the days it was better for woman. Coding was a woman job and women invented a lot of the field. e. g. the concept of debugging, the break point, thefirst few compilers, assemblers, ...

Yes that's right. The "break point" you know from debugging was intented by some of the cleverest people in the industry (which also were woman)

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay yet males like Alan Turing are hyped while woman are removed from compsci history.

It's sexism. And we all need to educate ourself about the sexism which has creeped into our field. Ignoring it and saying that "girls are just not interested in tech" solves nothing and instead puts the blame on the victims.

@saxnot @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay
hm, not to sound too harsh here,
but between the lines of your post there is almost something like obligation, form which guilt is maybe only a stones throw away.
I see absolutely no responsibility for mistakes others have made in the past.
Blanket statements like "women in tech are the victims, and men are the perpetrators" do, I am convinced, MUCH more harm than good.
It's impossible to build mutual respect on something as negative as forced guilt, on the one side, and on the other side, _will_ make it that much harder for people, once the label is attached, to get out of the victim role.

I agree with you that statements like "girls are not interested in tech" are obvious idiocy, I wonder who can believe them in earnest.

All this is probably not very coherent, it's the first time I've tried to put it into words.

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay You're new to the topic and that's OK.

Personally I have not yet read enough about it and I don't have enough contact to techfeminism to be at the state where I'd say to be "well informed".
What I want to say is: I'm not well informed enough to talk about the whole topic of sexism in tech. But I know a few things which most people don't know (simply by reading a tiny bit on this topic) and that maybe was ill-expressed in my previous 500 char toot.
1/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay I'm a 20/m/germany software developer with (soon even more) degrees in computer science.
Part of my current job is to teach coding to a woman which recently joined our team.

I noticed, that people interact differently with female coders than with male coders. I noticed that I interact differently with her than with my other colleagues.
2/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay I noticed that in the past I explained things to her in a manner which is derogatory. She asked me to explain X for her (because that's my job at the coding introduction) and I noticed that my explanation style is just different than usual. It's hard to describe but the term "derogatory" fits very well.
I noticed that this was sexism.
3/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay I didn't to it "on purpose" but I did it. When asking my mind it responds with "being female was not the reason" but my mind is probably somewhat lying here.
When talking to someone it's always important to categorize how to speak. Is this my boss? Is this a technical expert? Is this a neighbor which I rarely meet?
4/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay Every person is put into a category and that's normal. It's normal to talk differently to the boss than to the friend.
I put her in a category but BECAUSE she is a female she got into a category which leads to derogatory speak. I did not act willfully evil. But I did so because of my social bias.
5/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay And that's the damage of sexism in our industry. I underevaluated her simply because she's a woman. If someone asked me "was that sexist" I would answer a honest "no".

That's just one example which affected me personally on a small scale. On a large scale this means that woman are less likely to get attribution for a work, get less pay, get less jobs, ...
6/n

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay

... get less respect for the job, get only "a minor role" when writing the chapter on computer history and so forth.

That's sexism. It's some horrible force which is the result of the bias in which I grew up in and which creates so much pain for enterpreneurs, coders or writers who are female.
7/7

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@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay Women built the tech industry. Then they were pushed out.

I cannot find my original source. I think the NYT wrote about the history of how women were pushed out of tech once WWII was over and then written out of the history books. Software just "wasn't glorious work" even tho math skills were needed. As software became more prestigious women were forced out of the industry.
That's sexism.
And that sexism is not yet acknowledged enough.

typo fix 

@fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck @Siphonay I'd argue that "fossbro" is not a word.

I would also say that that calling rms a "fossbro" in the sense of "techbro" is distracting at best, purposefully misleading at worst.

@Siphonay this toot is especially directed at you.

It's fine to use new terms if the meaning of that term is clearly expressed in the local context (e. g. here on mastodon).

It's also fine to use namecalling with famous people if there are strong arguments for using that label.
For example: "Person X is a populist because of Y populism incident".

Calling names with neither having an argument or defining the word is just noise.

cc @fireglow @Tusky @ConnyDuck

I don't know the exact meaning of the above mentioned word but I can try to describe the symptoms:
@rms[1] is someone who helped @ConnyDuck in determining weather @Tusky is in the sense of the license.

RMS knows the license. Conny wanted a strong argument in favour of his license validity.
Tusky is free software.

Developers have the freedom to change it according to their own needs.
Non-Develoepers are unfree. They gain nothing from the foss freedom.

@Siphonay @fireglow

@rms @ConnyDuck @Tusky @Siphonay @fireglow FOSS grants freedoms to those who can perform computer magic, those who can pay for computer magic or those who can efficently get donations in order go pay for computer magic.

FOSS does not mean that any arbitrary non-privileged person can -use- the freedoms. Weather or not FOSS Devs need to listen to the non-coding-people is point of debate. Current status quo is "my code, my rights". And that sucks for everyone who can't code (has been okay for now)

[1]: this is a bot which reads the RMS blog feed. RMS is not available via ActivityPub protocol AFAIK.

@ConnyDuck @Tusky what else should it be if there is the whole source code I can alter and compile myself?! How is this even worth discussing? :antifa: :anarchoheart1: :hug:

@ConnyDuck Hell no. I am now fully belonging to the working class. I will not waste my free time to explain the tolerance paradox to libertarians because others already did in the thread and it looks like they do not care or understand.

@ConnyDuck @Tusky I can't believe I agree with Stallman on something lmao

@ConnyDuck Richard Stallman DESTROYS Gab fanboys with FACTS and LOGIC

@Gargron @ConnyDuck I like how he calls ordinary users "non-wizard users" 🧙‍♂️

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chaos.social - because anarchy is much more fun with friends.
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