Follow

I'm very sad that things like this happen at . I bet the coward who did this doesn't have the courage to talk to us about his problem with the flag.

@adi
Don't worry. All the guy did was advertise himself as an "A"sshole and made anarchism look stupid.

@adi
I like #rich people, because they compensate for their #insecurity by riding #BMW which doesn't really inconvenience anyone else.

Unlike #poor people, who will compensate for their #insecurity by engaging in petty #vandalism.

If the guy who scribbled that is reading this: know that your feeling of inadequacy is entirely justified—you really *are* a loser.

@adi
And if you catch him red handed, I would report him to the police for property damage (however minor) so that he can learn a valuable lesson concerning the consequences of one's acts.

@0 rich ppl pollute the planet with their BMW, vandalism is fun, cheap and mostly eco-friendly.

@o

And #vandals pollute the planet with their mere, parasitic existence.

As for being cheap, you may want to ask the victims.

@o

When I was way too young I thought it'd be a great idea to show off my martial art skills by smashing a road sign in my village.

I was kindly asked by the local plod to accompany them to the town hall, where the mayor made me pay for a replacement sign on the spot. He also asked me that I have the courtesy to pay in advance next time I plan to destroy something.

I did learn my lesson.

@0 i am happy u learned your lesson. another lesson is that some people do not enjoy nationalistic symbols in their hacking conference.

@o @0 Indeed, nationalism sucks big time. The lesson here is a different: Some people don't want to talk about. Maybe they think they are the smartest people on the planet. More likely they fear better arguments by the other side.

This type of is a totally idiotic act and will achive nothing, except making the less fun. Maybe this problem should be addressed in the upcoming 36c3 by a talk.

@Antanicus
Aren't you funny? The flag and sign now need to be replaced. Which costs money and natural resources. Which have thus been wasted in the name of anarchism.

Anarchism has a bad reputation as is. There's no need to worsen it any further.

@p2501 or you can stop bitching about a non-issue and stick with it... Unless the circled A makes you uncomfortable. But then again, if a symbol of freedom makes you uncomfortable, then maybe you should reconsider your priorities

@Antanicus
Are you suggesting that the CCC Switzerland should promote anarchism, even though not all members agree with the ideology? Because that's even worse.

@p2501 I see, you have a problem with Anarchism, not with vandalism. This is all I need to know.

@Antanicus
I don't. I have a problem with people spreading their opinion through violence (and vandalism is violence). I also have a problem with people disrespecting the freedom of opinion.

@p2501 You obviously never faced real violence for saying such a naive thing. @Antanicus

@malerbabomba
Trust me, I did. Just because there are far worse forms of violence does not make vandalism okay.

@p2501 Vandalism is neither good nor bad: it's a basic tool to disturb or fight something you don't like. Depends entirely on the case and the factions involved. And definitely it's not violence, which is directly exercised against people: it's property damage.

@malerbabomba
Sorry, but I have to put my foot down here: Hurting someone monetarily is a form of violence. And only in very rare circumstances is violence ever justified. Someone not agreeing with your worldview is not such a reason.

@p2501 you're either very naive or privilege-speaking.

@malerbabomba
(shrug) Think of it, what you will. Know, however, that my pacifism will not stop me defending me or my friends.

@p2501
Of course it you'll be stopped and I'll tell you by who: by any enemy who'll buy the smaller thing or that is smart enough to build an institution around itself.

@malerbabomba
In english please.
Just to make it clear once more: Defending yourself or others is a valid reason for violence. A disagreement is not. An assumed disagreement doubly so.

@p2501 @Antanicus

"(and vandalism is violence)"

I think concern trolling is a form of violence and by that metric, your parenthetical is the most violent thing I've seen in weeks.

Why have you come on to our peaceful fediverse with your violence?

@celesteh @Antanicus
I actually misunderstood you the first time, so let's try that again:

Violence: The act of hurting someone.

Vandalism: The act of damaging or destroying someone's property.

Damaging someone's property hurts them financially. In a capitalist society, that can hurt more than direct physical violence.

Thus vandalism is violence.

Also, I'm genuinly disturbed that you consider the opinion "vandalism is violence" to be violent. Don't you realize on what path you are?

@p2501 @Antanicus

Concern trolling wastes people's time, which often has an economic aspect. The use of bad faith arguments frustrates people, which had physiological impacts and has a negative effect on their health.

You are being EXTREMELY violent in this thread. Because it's online, your violence have a much wider reach than a little graffiti and this your violence is far worse!

@celesteh @Antanicus
Are you really not realising where you're going?

I meant everything I said. Everything was honest criticism. From my point of view, you are declaring criticism to be violence.

And that's only one step away from banning criticism.

I checked your older posts and concluded that you likely didn't mean it that way. You probably honestly think that I'm just trolling. But different people have different opinions and values, you know?

@p2501 @Antanicus

If defacing extremely cheap plastic flags is violence, then what your argument does to the blood pressure of anyone who has ever, say, reported a hate crime, is also violence.

(In the extremely unlikely event that you're making this argument in earnest, consider that structural violence impacts things necessary to life, like food, shelter and water. Are un-defaced flags on this list? I don't believe you could possibly be sincere with this.)

@celesteh @Antanicus
So you're saying that vandalism is okay as long as the things damaged or destroyed are nothing essential? Sorry to say, but that's pretty appalling to me. I could understand you're anger if it was directed against a fascist organisation or some such, but against a club of computer nerds? No.

(Also nice try framing my criticism as essentially the same, but your bridge of logic is a tad to flimsy to carry the weight).

@p2501 @Antanicus

Are you saying anything 'not ok' (according to you) is violence? Is crossing the street against the light also violence? What about a cyclist going against traffic on a one way street? If I lie to my grandma to say I'd love to join her square dancing club but have an unavoidable conflict, is that also violent? What if a find a fiver on the floor of the library and don't turn it in at the front desk, is that violent? If I don't pay my TV license?

@p2501

I actually had a union jack stolen from me on Saturday, which I'd actually completely forgotten about, even though I was quite annoyed at the time. It cost £3. It was not a victimless crime!
However, calling it a violent crime would show either disingenuity or ignorance of the word's meaning.
One of those things is trolling and the other is ignorance. However, once the speaker has been disabused, if they carry on, they're trolling.

So, are you trolling?

@celesteh
First off, I'm genuinely happy we're just discussing semantics. I was really afraid you were advocating crime.
To be sure, I did check my dictionary, and it does, indeed list property damage as an example of violence. Also verbal abuse, to list another non-physical example (psychological violence).
Bringing in the law doesn't help. It's written in jargon, not english.

@celesteh
If you think that's watering down the term, remember that it is really broad by nature. Even if we limit ourselves to physical violence, this can mean anything from intentionally stepping on someone's toes to global genocide.

@celesteh
That said, I wouldn't really categorize theft as violence. I guess the difference is that a stolen good can theoretically be returned intact.

@p2501

If you can actually speak and understand English and are still claiming that some Sharpie on a £3 flag is violent, you're trolling. (Try contacting the police and see what they say about it.)

As I've stated earlier, I believe trolling is violence. Your violence all over this timeline is a disgrace. Think of the children who might be subject to your violence!

@celesteh
Okay. Up until now I assumed you where genuinely upset, but that last post was a bit too much. Hint: "Think of the children" is a red flag. In your credit, it's been a long while since someone managed to troll me for so many posts.

One last thing: That's a high quality textile 9 square foot flag, not some tiny plastic toy.

@p2501 @Antanicus

I've been assuming that you're fluent in English, but it occurs to me that you're perhaps unaware of the definition of the word violence? It refers to an action which harms another person in terms of their health or physical being. Punching someone is violent. Stealing their hat is not. There are a lot of online dictionaries you can visit which can explain the differs between violent and non-violent crimes further.

@p2501 @Antanicus

You have nearly the command of the language as does a native speaker, but if course, one shouldn't make assumptions.

@p2501 @Antanicus Do all your members agree with showing a national flag this big? Do all of you agree to the ideology of nationalism?

@erictapen
That's a straw man argument. A national flag by itself just signifies a location. I'm pretty certain that all members agree that the CCC Switzerland is indeed from Switzerland.

In certain contexts the flag may signify nationalism, but no such context is present here.

@p2501 That is part of the ideology of nationalism; that showing the flag of a nation state 'just' identifies the area which is governed by the state. That this is not true can be experienced quite often. Whenever nationalists make their claims they show flags of their state. Whenever a state needs to justify their power they show their flag.

Mixing up the area which is governed by the state and the state itself, tells me that you can't imagine the former without the latter.

@erictapen
Errr, no. A very central part of nationalism is that the national flag signifies way more than just a location.

@p2501 @Antanicus why were they promoting nationalism then with a flag? Because that's even worse.

@o
A national flag, by itself, signifies a location. No context was given that suggests nationalism. You are projecting.

@p2501 u should be a bunch of confused ppl if you need to be reminded to be in Switzerland all the time.

in reality, a flag is always and everywhere political symbol that it doesn't exist in a vacuum: and it's not more or less legit of Ⓐ.

some enjoy nationalist symbols, and some really do not enjoy them deal with it.

@o
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But please respect that others might disagree.

@o
I do. But I draw the line where someone gets hurt. Even if it's just monetarily.

@p2501 lol.

that was a non-violent act, by all possible standards.

the flag owner will get wiser next time: he made a political statement, and he got a political answer.

to put it mildly: showing nationalist symbols in a space full of hackers and anarchist, perhaps wasn't the brightest of the ideas.

@o
1: The flag needs to be replaced. Thus the owner got hurt monetarily. Thus this is was indeed violence.

2: You ASSUME the owner made a political statement based on what YOU consider the flag to be a symbol of.

3: Hurting someone, whether physically, psychologically or monetarily, just because you assume they disagree with your worldview is seriously NOT OK.

@p2501

1. the flag needs to burn.

2. The flag has a nationalist meaning, that you like it or not.

2. Hurting someone propriety, is definitely not the same as hurting someone. And it's a very standard non-violent technique: aeinstein.org/nonviolentaction (n. 26)

@o
So you are certain that the flag was put there with nationalist intent. Why? Did you TALK to the owner?

You didn't, did you.

Maybe you should try that next time. You might be surprised.

And no, vandalism is violence. If you really think that it isn't, get out of your bubble.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
chaos.social

chaos.social - because anarchy is much more fun with friends.
chaos.social is a small Mastodon instance for and by the Chaos community surrounding the Chaos Computer Club. We provide a small community space - Be excellent to each other, and have a look at what that means around here.
Follow @ordnung for low-traffic instance-related updates.
The primary instance languages are German and English.