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I don't really get why people are so exited about
Its going to be an MIT / BSD licensed kernel and os, which means there will be zero incentive for manufacturers to open source drivers or firmware at all.
My expectation is this will not move us forwards, but usher in the pre-"IBM PC compatible" days of the mobile device era.

@ck > Its going to be an MIT / BSD licensed kernel and os, which means there will be zero incentive for manufacturers to open source drivers or firmware at all.

They keep using this justification to attack BSDs and it never gets proven true. Time and time again we find that vendors who use our work contribute massive changes back because it's far too expensive and error prone to make a hard fork of something so complex. Netflix is donating an entirely new TCP stack and kernel TLS. Bluecoat donated a complete rewrite of how the kernel manages routing tables. Amazon gives us stuff.

Sure, Sony uses FreeBSD as the basis for OrbOS in PS4 and whatever they're calling PS5. We don't get to see their code changes. But it doesn't matter; we know what they've done -- they've stripped the kernel down to the syscalls they need, adding in new ones for their own needs as a gaming console, and basically broke the OS. If they released the changes it would be a waste of time to dig in except for curiosity.

@feld I agree about the kernel itself, but that is not the issue. The issue is device drivers and firmware. Just look at how much work goes into reverse engineering drivers for linux despite the kernel being GPL. Companies like Qualcomm, who probably build hardware for the vast majority of the mobile device world, fight tooth and nail for every line of code they add. That situation will not improve with a BSD style kernel, it will get worse. And its not that Google does not know about it either

@ck The argument about them not giving back is silly, though. It's the weakest argument. Especially in a mobile device where the hardware is very, very niche and requires a TON of R&D to build and will be shipped for a very short period of time. I don't blame these companies protecting their IP with firmware blobs -- it's all they have to stop their investment from being hijacked from a Chinese chip cloning operation and flooding the market with cheap knockoffs.

Be angry that it's not being developed fully in the open, make it a security/privacy argument, make it a repair/device longevity argument -- those are fair. But "giving back" is the least of the worries here, honestly.

@feld thank you. There’s no better way to advocate against BSD than to hear in 2020 that a lax license gives BSD an edge, is good for the market, and for customers xD
Now I will go back to my router with OpenWRT which exists thanks to an enforced reciprocal license.

@ck

@fudgel @ck you should try a BSD router sometime -- has a better firewall and network stack 😇
@fudgel @ck I just use HardenedBSD (freebsd fork with extra kernel hardening) on a PCEngines APU board with 4GB RAM, NVMe SSD, 3 gigabit NICs. I can do filtering at about line rate with IPFW firewall, I have ZFS snapshots, it's low power.

If you need a GUI and don't want to do everything manually in the shell, OPNsense is based on HardenedBSD; pfSense is based on vanilla FreeBSD
@feld @fudgel @ck or bare-metal OpenBSD
It works really and is super light too

@feld you recommend an overpriced board as a router and state that line‑rate firewall, snapshots and low power are killer features? That doesn’t sound like an objectively better alternative but as a Stockholm syndrome.

@fudgel > overpriced board

I mean, if you like the terrible quality components in the consumer boards people flash OpenWRT on, go for it. But time is money, and I don't tolerate outages due to repurposed trash. An hour outage from a dead firewall costs me more than the firewall.

I have:

- a pretty good low power CPU
- ECC memory
- ZFS + snapshots, protecting my data in multiple ways
- an OS I don't have to think about what changed every year.

It just gets better, not different. My current board is like 5 years old and still works. I patch it a couple times a year, but most CVEs are not applicable to me due to HardenedBSD or my lack of exposed services.

@ck *looks up from writing public domain software* yeah hard to imagine any *BSD having any hardware support at all.

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