All I have to say to folks that just learned this week that #freenode #IRC was sold 4 years ago to someone:

It's 2021 and you're still not decentralized?

@matrix

@downey @matrix Despite IRC being mainly run on Freenode, wasn't it still decentralized overall?

@Lofenyy @downey

You run a set of servers as a network, that servers sync. Not everyone can connect their server.
So it is more load distribution and making sure availability is given.
All under enforced rules and with normally managed teams.

People seem to forget tho, that this model has certain positive side effects. Cohesive rules, stability, and cost benefits.

Alternatives such as XMPP do only help so far, if later everything and their dog uses the one system (jabber.ccc.de anyone?)

@Lofenyy @downey

It boils down to, it does not matter what System and whether we (as communities) run our federated, distributed or whatever system. We must start running our OWN infrastructure.

Federated, decentralized etc are helping to make it more easy. We need to build our skillset, help others to run it.
To in the end not end up with yet again someone else running infrastructure where we are guests.

That is the hard problem most people overlook. It is social. Long commitment.

@Lofenyy @downey

To actually give a rather sad example:
Hackerspaces.

Why do hackerspaces not all run their infrastructure? Who, if not Hackerspaces would be those seedpoints?
Why do large hackerspaces run on google groups or whatever?

I do not want to blame each and every individual to make such a choice, because of workload. But our communities should help small groups run their own stuff. We (as hackerspace movement) fail if we do not even manage to run our own spaces. Physical and online

@Lofenyy @downey

And of course a lot of stuff is happening in fringe.
jabber.ccc.de was one example, chaos.social, hackint, and many many more are run by fine volunteer groups from those different groups.

Lets help build and foster that spirit. Run small infrastructure, help others build it.

I am certain we can do it.

@mwfc @downey It shouldn't be so fringe IMO. Why aren't mainstream tech groups doing this stuff? It'd be excellent learning material for younger folk who want to learn. If you pass it on to them, they'll pass it on to others. The libre movement shouldn't be confined to us crusty folk who actively repel outsiders. We simply can't do this alone.

@Lofenyy @downey

I do not know why mainstream or group Y does it.
I am and have been part of the local hackerspaces groups and have tried to make a dent to run our own infrastructure and teach skills.
I know many others do too.

But I sadly see that there are always few running infrastructure, and not only in the sense of servers or maintain rooms, but in keeping the institutions alive. In Germany you often have a few running many coops, doing the "housekeeping" and odd jobs noone else does.

Follow

@Lofenyy @downey

They are mostly not visible, but take out few key players in a couple of local ecosystems, and the whole scene collapses. Sad truth is, we are not good in scaling work on many shoulders.

Some people get grumpy, because it is always them to do the work. Others dont bother documenting, because it is again them in the end doing it.
Some vicious circle that needs breaking, and that requires a ton of work, and caring for people doing such work.

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@Lofenyy @downey

So key issue to tackle is social. yet we focus on tool discussions.
Install a wiki and documentation will appear.
a CMS everyone can use, then homepage articles appear.

Yeah, but just "someone" needs to keep the door open.
"Everyone" could welcome new folks in spaces.

And in the end?
On boarding takes time and energy. It hinders _your_ progress in _your_ project. That is the reason I heard from many hackerspace folks why they don't do this job. They come for their project.

@Lofenyy @downey

They are not malicious or ignorant, we just fail to make the work needed to run our places visible.

And off to work

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chaos.social – a Fediverse instance for & by the Chaos community