Do you mean how to install their software or do you mean how the code works?
@onepict Developer documentation is about how the code works... Installing the software is a subject for the user documentation...
So in what way are Framasoft and Invidious failing? Criticism is valid but it needs to be explicitly explained if you want the developers (one of who needs a rest, and there's alot of folk feeling left in the lurch) and the community to listen. Is it not just the documentation is it also a failure in communication by the developers?
@onepict When projects are developed by single developers, it's particularly important to have thorough documentation:
- to facilitate uptake for potential coding contributors;
- to ensure maintainability and possible continuation of the project, if the original developer falls by the wayside.
Proper developer documentation is even more important when projects seek to accumulate communities that become dependent on the software.
Preaching to the choir here. I'm just trying to find a way to communicate that with others. We can't just sub toot it. We have to be explicit. Which may lead to some arguments.
Which I hate the idea of. I'd rather just have a discussion and have it lead to some form of consensus. But for it to get there in this space everyone's cards need to be on the table with explicit reminders of what the particular rules are.
I'm just hoping that perhaps one day when new developers/projects come along the points we make sink in. It does feel pointless occasionally, but I feel it's important someone states this. If nothing else it means if folk say "oh no one spoke up to us about this" there's a record that shows some of us have. If only to encourage more of the silent community who does agree but are scared to speak up to do so. It's a measure of a community on how it reacts to queries or criticism.
I know that to some developers this can seem like a side issue and pointless. But I don't get how we expect FLOSS projects to be utilised by laymen or folks outside our bubble if we can't make it compressible to them. Proprietary doesn't just win because of monetary resources, it's because there are resources so that any person can easily use/install their products. Regardless of privacy violations or how crap the product is.
This is beyond consumers, this is an ecosystem that is now in Education and onwards. How many people use Windows because its just always been there. How often do FLOSS solutions get ripped out due to a new lay person making the decisions for SMEs, some local governments and charities? So often, is the answer. How do we encourage those organisations outside to support the development? How do we show the value of the software to people who don't code. The working product isn't enough.
I'm ranting I know.
@onepict I agree with what you say, and feel the same way
Proper developer documentation would almost certainly be a contractual clause.
But even with software that's free but that accumulates a large dependence community, surely it's a bit of a moral obligation to properly document it so that the entire project is not dependent of one single human...
#framasoft please hear...
@onepict @paolo By the way, when you load it, it alternates between the #peertube default white theme and my chosen instance dark theme, because of a bug, and because although there's already a patch on Github, I can't figure out how to apply it to the code installed on my server... That's because of lack of proper developer documentation...
@onepict @paolo No, I filed an issue about the theming problem (https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/issues/3007) and a fix was pushed... But the real issue is that the #peertube codebase is very complex, and it's very difficult to know what files to patch.... Whereas with proper developer documentation, it would be possible to figure that out...
#framasoft please hear...
Yeah, it may have been easier if they had specified the specific git commit. Although I suspect they weren't sure which one would be suitable for you. Perhaps respond, restate the ubuntu release part and the current contents of the config file as you aren't sure which commit is suitable. It can be difficult for developers responding to support requests when in the middle of coding. This happens with the bigger projects as well, even with paid support/dev tiers.
@onepict @paolo This is starting to deviate away from the original subject... But, in fact, Paolo, application of the solution in the resolving commit (https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/commit/7c87bce4715ca291c8e449d9de3d92c69725d45c) is difficult, because the names of the files edited in the codebase are not at all the same as the names of the files ultimately physically providing the executed code... So I say again that proper developer documentation would have been necessary to enable me to implement the patch...
#framasoft #peertube PLEASE HEAR
Yeah, you might just need to really lay that out in the ticket. I know you shouldn't have to, you might need a separate ticket to illustrate its a documentation issue now.
@onepict No, we're getting off-topic now 😄 I can resolve this particular problem by re-installing my instance using a clone of the git master... but, the *real subject of interest* is that proper developer documentation is really necessary for a project like #peertube, which has a big dependent community but only one single developer... If we lose that dev, a whole community and a whole project is orphaned...
#peertube #framasoft please hear...
Indeed, I think I switched context from my community brain to my support brain. LOL.
also for 10-20 years there has not been enough encouragement of teens/young adults into either sysadmin or dev work other than those who go via traditional route of University, when really this should start with high school and more organisations should encourage coders as young as their teens (even some FOSS orgs seem to only want graduates as interns) but without all the high pressure environment of bootcamps or those cursed job interviews USA tech cos carry out..
in England and Wales goodwill that teachers had for running after school clubs was lost around 1989/90 (when I was still in high school!) as Education Authorities held teachers liable for any safeguarding incidents that could happen, its even more of a minefield for outside visitors to a high school environment (I have to deal with it for my volunteer work in community radio).
Also cultural attitudes amongst youth imported from USA (nerds vs jocks) need to change>>
what happens (even more so than when I was a lad decades ago) is those lads and lasses who are into tech get judged as "geeks/swots" and uncool, but often do quite well with qualifications and get better jobs later in life, but why /would/ they want to increase social equality for those who previously bullied them?
So perhaps not surprising they don't care about working for proprietary software company and/or adtech/surveillance...
that is definitely true, I did work experience with British Telecom when they were still part nationalised and my mentor was this middle aged union activist chap who talked a lot about telecoms as a public service and a lifeline to seniors and those with health problems as any of the tech (today I work in IT/networking for health and social care organisations!)
Cleaning up documentation is also a major endeavour for any project. It's not something that's often funded either. Along with support which is seen as a cost, it's tied with documentation and better docco does reduce the support. We do know this, but it's hard to do when you are firefighting or trying to hit a specific deadline. As I said I really feel both sides of the argument on this. Especially when resources are constrained.
@onepict I kind of see the issue but I see it as my issue not one created by #peertube or other FOSS.
I run https://peertube.opencloud.lu, I understand roughly how it works, I know how to install it and perform basic troubleshooting.
I know I have limits in regards what to do as I don't have time to develop and patch things and I know little about many of the frameworks and component used.
It is anyway simple enough for a non expert in everything to install and run.
Good enough for me.
Arrgh comprehensible not compressible. 🤦♀️ Autocorrect strikes again.
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