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WTF? `suckless` is officially cancelled for me. Nazi symbolism and right wing bullshit is not acceptable. `pkg delete slock`. twitter.com/pid_eins/status/11

All tools have been removed from my system. Replaced with and with .

@hirnbrot Yep… I mean… what the actual fuck? I'm speechless.

@raichoo Well... suckless always prided itself on elitism, so going a bit further isn't that out of the question?

@hirnbrot Elitism and shit like that are IMHO 2 very different pair of shoes.

@raichoo Yeah, that was probably uncalled for (and not entirely serious).

@hirnbrot @raichoo for someone who idealizes as few lines of code doing powerful things this guy sure says a lot to say nothing.

I don't get how the devuan email directly factors into this tho.

@oct2pus @hirnbrot That's a picture from one of their conferences. Presented without further comment. suckless.org/conferences/2017/

@raichoo @hirnbrot just like...why

The only thing im gonna miss is dmenu tho since that can be very useful.

@oct2pus @hirnbrot I don't really use dmenu, but what about rofi as a replacement? Not sure if it makes the cut but I know some people using that and they seem to be happy with it.

@raichoo @hirnbrot rofi is fine I just liked the top bar line a bit better.

Both of these need to be replaced for Wayland though.
@raichoo @hirnbrot also id probably explain what fackelmarsch since there are no English sources and it took me a bit to realize this is that tiki torch march neonazis seem to do.

If nazi stuff is all over their place, you surely have better than a pic of a few youths holding torches, @raichoo! I mean, if so, I'd really like to know! But if I try to show that to anyone as sole proof of a nazi claim, people will laugh at me.

@oct2pus @hirnbrot

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo If you're expecting to see swastikas, SS runes, you're not gonna find it.

Those are illegal in germany, so that's no longer how nazis operate here. It's all dog whistles and subtler symbols.

RefurioAnachro - At this point, all I see is a few people claiming things they can't prove. And Poettering trying to discredit critics by screaming unfounded nazi claims. That's pathetic, ugly, and irresponsible, because even if, you gotta prove your claims, especially if you have a large audience!

@hirnbrot @raichoo

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo So you're telling me what the suckless folks are doing _isn't_ pathetic, ugly and irresponsible?

Heck, sending Poettering "ironic" invites is quite shitty by itself.

That's not "critics", that's assholes. The nazi imagery (and that's undisputably what "Wolfsschanze" _is_! Really the best you can claim there is that you're doing it ironically, which itself is dubious at best, and in combination with the other stuff...) is the cherry on top.

I asked for better proof. If you uncritically repeat other folk's (so far unfounded) claims, you're doing it wrong. Attacking folks just because someone says so is what scares me a out fascism. Screaming louder won't help.

@hirnbrot @raichoo

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo Dude...

- They're naming machines after nazi headquarters (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCh)

- They're doing nazi traditions

- They're decrying "SJW madness" and "cultural marxism" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfur)

Those are the facts.

And that's ignoring the devuan thing. That was all a suckless dude.

You don't _get_ people saying "I'm a nazi" and wearing swastikas. This is about as close as you do get.

Okay, I give up, you don't seem to intend to provide any references for the claim that all this is related to suckless.org. So can we stop this now?

@hirnbrot @raichoo

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo You mean that this is the first chair of suckless.org e.v.'s board?

ev.suckless.org/

Who explicitly _chose_ to represent suckless when talking "SJW madness" (lobste.rs requires you to choose to "wear the hat" for each comment, IIRC)? lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leavin

The tiki march happening at an official suckless event?

Can you quote a bit of text from your lobste.rs link, I don't get where I should look at in this rather long thread. I've searched for the guy you named, but couldn't find him on that page. I'm on mobile, I'm sorry if I'm asking for the obvious.

@hirnbrot @raichoo

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo

lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leavin:

>Massive kudos to this guy for not putting up with this SJW madness. I wish him all the best!

>We at suckless are heavily opposed to code of conducts and discriminatory organizations of any shape or form.

and from lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leavin

>I get your point, but must honestly say that your argument sadly aligns with the ever-excluding and self-segregating destructful nature of cultural marxism.

All by "FRIGN suckless.org developer".

Searching for "madness" gives no result on that page. Neither for "discriminatory". Nor "frign". This is beyond silly. Bye.

lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leavin

@hirnbrot

@RefurioAnachro What? It's the exact comment you linked!

That was literally the complete text!

Here's a screenshot

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo I'm not going crazy, right? lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leavin contains this text:

>Massive kudos to this guy for not putting up with this SJW madness. I wish him all the best!

>We at suckless are heavily opposed to code of conducts and discriminatory organizations of any shape or form.

?

Okay, I believe you. It may be a problem with my mobile, I'll have another look when I get home. And 'cultural marxism' has certainly a very bad odour.

@hirnbrot @raichoo

Okay, at least now I can read what you read, @hirnbrot. Thank you very much for your patience!

However, I must say that this all does look a bit like a smear campaign. Take this statement:

FRIGN> Thus, to make your software suck less, you only take the best developers no matter what race, gender, heritage, etc. these persons have.

(cont'd)

@hirnbrot @raichoo

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It seems my phone simply didn't fetch the whole page. I feel I should take the blame for that, sorry for the confusion :-/

@hirnbrot @raichoo

You do want me to see your proof, do you?

That picture with the torches, could be anything.

Even if the first chair of suckless e.V. would be a nazi, of which you'd still need to convince me, shouldn't we still ask the rest of the community what they think, to give them a chance to react?

I'm sorry, I'm still aghast about your demanding to condemn people based on so little evidence. Think again!

@hirnbrot @raichoo

@RefurioAnachro @raichoo If you pick a right-wing idiot as your chair, and let him represent your org with his idiocy, your organisation is now a right-wing idiotic one.

He's associating himself with nazi symbolism in a manner that I, as a german person, find heavily distasteful _and_ he's sending harrassing emails to unrelated third-parties.

I don't want to associate with him or any organisation that votes him into a board seat.

And I'm not discussing whether he's technically a "nazi".

@hirnbrot @raichoo for a man who idealized using as little code as possible to do exactly what it needs to he sure says quite a lot to say very little. And what he does have to say seems profoundly ignorant at best (and considering the torch marches, I cant imagine I should be taking him at his best)

I don't get how devuan directly factors into suckless though.
@raichoo

Yeah, this is completely unacceptable!

Thinking about it more, I think I remember the incident @hirnbrot linked; and immediately unsubscribed from their lists (a general policy of cutting ties with anyone complaining about SJWs has served me well), but then I forgot about it…

This is another level, and I _will_ remember it.

@raichoo always thought they're toxic arseholes because of the "everyone's code sucks except our own one's and all our bugs are features" attitude. But never considered it might be THAT bad o.o

@enum thought their philosophy reflected some soft of minimalism which I always think is a good approach, but I would have never thought that rabbit hole would go down that deep.

@raichoo hm, i liked that minimalism in the very beginning, but the toxicity starts when they put "we got less lines of code" above anything else, declare other programs' useful features as bugs, and their own deficiencies as features (because it saved code lines!!1!)

Your terminal emulator supports a terminal type i don't use? Buug!
My terminal emulator can't even scroll? Feature!
My terminal emulator can't send DEL properly? The other software's fault!!

@raichoo eventually i started to think minimalism is not even what it's about; more a justification for an NIH syndrome, and to satisfy some narcism

@enum I've never dived into the culture of suckless so I wasn't exposed to that kind of toxicity. I just thought st for example seemed neat until it became increasingly painful to manage. slock was so simple that I just installed it as a binary package. That was pretty much about it.

@raichoo slock is easily replaceable - not sure what to do about st though. This sucks...

@nj0rd I've recently switched back to xterm (not motivated by this), and I surprisingly enjoy it WAY more than st. But your mileage may vary.

@raichoo trying urxvt...
I try to remember what I disliked about it in the first place.

@nj0rd I'm happy with xterm but I surely care about your findings and would like to know about your conclusion. :)

@julienxx The rabbit hole goes much deeper than that apparently. There is nazi symbolism all over the place in their "organization" and they are not even hiding it. I totally wasn't aware of this before.

@raichoo me neither, I wasn’t really interested in their stuff since they showed up as some kind of elitist bunch you can find among teenagers groups which irked me a bit.
If on top of that they have nazi sympathies even if it’s just for « fun » it looks like suckless sucks big time ^^

@julienxx Totally. I just wanted a small and snappy terminal emulator as well as a simple screen locker. st and slock were recommended to me and they sorta did the job (until st became a huge PITA).

Care to share links to this "all over the place" nazi symbolism, @raichoo? I have found ugly stuff on that devuan mailing list, but is it related to suckless.org at all??

Poettering, on the other hand, is known for having feuds with all sorts of people who dare to criticize his brainchilds.

@julienxx

@RefurioAnachro @julienxx They have a picture from one of their conferences where they are doing a Fackelmarsch back in 2017 which is down right Nazi symbolism.

That's very thin, @raichoo. Calling someone a nazi is a serious allegation, which, if unfounded, should reflect right back to the claimee...

@julienxx

@RefurioAnachro They carried torches! What more evidence do you need?

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chaos.social

chaos.social - because anarchy is much more fun with friends.
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