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After writing a window manager for I must say that the "X just works" argument is kind of shoddy. The way X gets graphics onto the screen is… atrocious and most of the graphic issues we are dealing with today exist because of how X "works" and people are happily ignoring that. is a great opportunity to move things into a better direction, yes adoption is slow, but that's kind of because of us isn't it?

Now waiting for people to accuse me of being a hipster who just wants wobbly windows and has no clue what he's talking about. But maybe here this is different, since this is not twitter. Maybe…

@raichoo I just want that it just works. And wayland does on Fedora. Me happy. (Also: no screen tearing out of the box, yay!)

@posiputt Fedora is doing great work there, they smuggled it into their user base and a lot of people barely noticed it. Great move!

@raichoo oof, nice knee jerk reaction you got there. Nah man, you totally can be proud of what you have achieved AND what you've learned while doing it. 💪

You da man, and I am looking forward to use it finally.

@ppxl It'll take a lot more time to be somewhat ready, still a couple of months to go, but I'm going to hack a lot on it in the next couple of weeks :)

@raichoo I'm not familiar enough with the details to know, but: is it possible to have network transparency or tunneling with Wayland?

For all the things that are hard (I've done GL over X11) or not even possible with X, a lot of the basics are network transparent. I've heard that's not the case with Wayland, which may or not be true. And if true, might be OK if local rendering is less crazy.

Still betting on Wayland myself...

@tfb The thing is: network transparency with X is more or less dead, most clients render directly and shove pixmaps from A to B. I'd rather have a proper RDP implementation.

@raichoo You're not wrong, but it's still useful to have remote applications (Tk stuff, Emacs, etc). I know from running remote Firefox and CAD tools how much of a joke the remaining network transparency can be.

But it seems like it ought to be possible to tunnel a GL context across ssh or something similar, for Wayland.

Or maybe it's just sensible to give up on that. Still too bad.

@tfb I don't think that's a good idea, there are protocols that are designed for this kind of stuff, should we really try to fit the square thingy into the round hole? I don't think so.

@raichoo oh yeah wayland is great but you can't reuse graphics tools between display managers (like xrandr/arandr) so...

@raichoo (which means it's harder for small window managers to exist in the wayland ecosystem, since they need to write all their tools themselves)

@wxcafe I'm doing just that, and when you write a compositor in you have to deal with multimonitor setups anyway, and you are doing that in a well defined way. In X… well, which version of the xrandr protocol, a lot of window managers are also still supporting xinerama. WTH?

@raichoo sure. But then it depends on which compositor you're using, I can't use sway because their multimonitor config system changes the ID of every monitor every time I dock/undock my laptop.

meanwhile xrandr keeps it consistent whichever compositor I use...

@raichoo and also I don't have to figure out how to do it with gnome's tool or kde's tool or i3's tool or openbox's tool etc, it's just xrandr

@raichoo @wxcafe uhm, isn't wlroots exactly that? There's some number of wms built on top of it

@charlag @wxcafe Yep, wlroots is doing a lot to standardize things in this regard. That's the point of "adoption", these things don't happen magically, someone needs to take care of that. Thankfully this project is helping a lot. I also build my compositor on top of , and apparently the KDE folks are also adopting their protocols to keep things compatible.

@raichoo @charlag well. let's hope they can manage to have some standard way to do multiscreen that works for my usecase then, that'll be the day I switch I guess

@wxcafe @charlag Currently I would also consider not having something like `xrandr` a feature since it's pretty much a nice demonstration of what's wrong with X. It's a global namespace, it's basically just a random client messing with your. This is something just privileged programs should be able to do (in wayland's case that's the compositor), same goes for screenshots/recordings as well a locking (grabbing all the input events). Certainly something to ponder IMHO.

@wxcafe @charlag I agree that users need to be able to setup their displays, no arguing here ^^. I'm just arguing that the current way of doing that might not be ideal and could use some fresh thinking. That's my entire point.

@wxcafe @charlag Sure it works, just differently. Which is not surprising given that's an entirely different protocol and approach. Stating that "it does not work because xrandr does it differently" seems… wrong.

@raichoo @charlag it doesn't work cause I can't automate it such that when I dock my machine it switches displays reliably. my use case does not work

@wxcafe @charlag Docking a laptop or basically just attaching/detaching a screen, just generates an event for the compositor to handle. I'm pretty such you can setup things like sway exactly the way you are used to with X. I've seen people attaching and detaching displays from a wayland compositor without any issues and things work just as expected. But okay, if you insist on things not working I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

@wxcafe @charlag Is everything perfect on wayland? No, certainly not, same goes for X. But I'll maintain my position that wayland offers a better technical foundation to deal with these things, now it's up to people writing compositors to improve things.

@wxcafe @charlag Things won't improve unless people are pushing it. What you are currently doing is: pushing it. There are things you want to see on wayland, communicate your needs to people working on things you are interested in, maybe even contribute some code. Maybe there are solutions you are not even aware of, maybe you need to adjust your workflow a bit, maybe not. If we don't do that collectively, things will eventually stagnate.

@wxcafe @charlag That's fair enough, people need to be pushing improvements on all fronts. Not everyone on each front. Anyway v6 does not work because my provider does not give me a v6 address at home… ah sorry that was a bad joke but I could not resist 😺

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@lukedashjr I've seen this article and if someone honestly invokes LD_PRELOAD as an argument I close the tab and move on to more informed people. I've written a window manager in X and I'm currently writing a compositor in wayland. I really can't take the author of that post serious, sorry. The post has also been thoroughly debunked by someone who did his homework and is way more credible in this regard, drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Way.

@lukedashjr @raichoo did you read the follow-up in which it is clarified that the lies/mistakes were in the way fanboys represent wayland rather than problems with wayland itself? If not, worth a read catfox.life/2019/03/12/further

@raichoo Wayland is great. I use it without issues for everything, including gaming.

@charlag That's great to hear, I heard that some folks were having issues with gaming on wayland. Since I'm not gaming, I can neither confirm nor deny ^^.

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