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"Why are the BSDs such special snowflakes when it comes to audio?!? Just implement ALSA!"… I've got news for you kid.

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It seems I have become a Unix neck beard… without even having a beard. Not sure if want :/ (not the beard)

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@raichoo you too can be a snow flake when you ignore what everyone else does.. or something

@nikita Isn't it fun how the Linux folks constantly go NIH over every single thing out there, totally ignoring the lessons that other folks got out of implementing stuff way before them and then complain why their broken APIs are not considered standard?

@raichoo Also linuxists when ALSA has the slightest bug with their program: What about using pulseaudio?

@lanodan Waiting for an abstraction layer over pulseaudio. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaany minute now.

@lanodan *queue evil laughter through pulseaudio-effects reverb*

@raichoo @lanodan Pulseaudio is so last year. The future of audio in linux is PipeWire

@rider @lanodan Darn, really? Please tell me you are pulling my leg 🙀

@raichoo @rider I wanted to forget about it.
PipeWire also seems to want to manage audio+video streams and please no, stuff like v4l2 isn't great but so far it seems to work, I don't want the pulseaudio version of that.
@lanodan @raichoo I seem to be slipping deeper and deeper into some kind of neckbeard cave. The last decades of new linux users has brought with them some oddities.
While I don't mourn the old days when everything was rather harsh and "just write your own driver if you need it" was a valid answer to questions if someone knew if there were any drivers for X. Still, many seem to expect things to magically work and when mishandling things blame everything around them.
Others see that something works on their laptop and now should be the standard for every usecase everywhere.
What happened to reading manpages and trying to understand things?
What happened to seeing the BSDs as siblings who just chose something slightly different?
Did a more reasonable ever exist or was it all in my head?
Sorry for the rant...

@qrsbrwn @lanodan This resonates quite a lot with me. I kind of ran away from Linux because I was feeling so alienated by how everything became. Did I lose touch, are they? It's all very weird and confusing…

@raichoo @lanodan I'm mainly using Linux because it makes sense to me. If something else comes up that I resonate with I'll go there to see.
I've run BSDs in the dark ages but didn't stick around.
I wish plan9 was more of a thing. I like plan9.

@qrsbrwn @lanodan All OSes are just tools, use what works best for you ^^. I'm glad that FreeBSD does the job for me but I totally get why someone would not use it.

@raichoo Happy to see FreeBSD users out there! I'm currently on NixOS (Linux), and I only tried FreeBSD and NetBSD once each, 10 years ago. I'd be curious to hear why you chose FreeBSD over otherBSD over Linux 🙂 Is it mostly about the community, mostly technical details, or both? (These are interconnected of course.)

@qrsbrwn @lanodan

@scolobb Mainly because of ZFS and DTrace, and I really like the documentation. Also that the whole OS, kernel and userland is one project. That really makes a difference in terms of consistency. Dunno if that helps :)

@lanodan @qrsbrwn

@raichoo It sure does!

I'm not really up to date in what concerns Linux kernel strategies/policies, but I'm not happy with the fact that it looks so much like a monopoly to me. I'm rather anxious to see what happens when Linus retires, as even way before that moment Google has already managed to absolutely pervert Linux with the abominable design of Android. So I'm considering long-term alternative kernels. BSDs look good (they looked good back in the 2000s as well). Frankly, I'm even giving GNU/Hurd some consideration, especially because I have done some non-trivial development for this kernel and I do like the underlying concepts. Unfortunately, last time I checked hardware support wasn't really there. But hey, that's an opportunity 🙂

@lanodan @qrsbrwn

@scolobb
Didn't Linus step down as BDFL some time ago? But honestly, I don't think he matters a lot in the grand scheme of things, not even in terms of directing the project. Linux will go on without him. But that's just my 2 cents. Which kernel is HURD using these days? Still the Mach or did the L4 work that was more of less a POC get anywhere. I didn't follow the project for quite some time.

@lanodan @qrsbrwn

@raichoo Oh, you're right I remember now that Linus did publicly say that he was kind of stepping down. I'm under the impression that his word still matters a very big deal, but it is indeed reassuring that he is willing to let the project form its own driving force, independent of his personality.

According to GNU Hurd's web page, it still runs on Mach. I think I remember seeing a message somewhere saying that l4-hurd was abandoned, probably for the lack of people to work on that port. But then, last time I did anything serious for GNU Hurd dates back to 2009, so I'm probably not the best reference.

By the way, great thanks for this interesting discussion! I realize now that one of the reasons I stopped paying attention to my kernel is that I basically didn't see a choice. This thinking process is now restarted in my brain.

@lanodan @qrsbrwn
@qrsbrwn @raichoo Well, I've been stuck on using linux here for application compatibility (which is why I'm also stuck to glibc other than on servers) and ZFS on Root support (which FreeBSD has since ~2014).
Also I find gentoo to have a better ~ports tree and tools than what the BSDs have. Could use FreeBSD on servers but not much reasons to so I prefer to stick to gentoo there as well so stuff is more consistent.

Might just reboot Gentoo/*BSD at some point.
@qrsbrwn @raichoo Which reminds me, do you think anyone in the BSDs communities is interested in using it on smartphones like the pinephone?
Because I think this would typically be the kind of device where I would wish to have it run BSD just for a greater stability of the important parts.
@lanodan @raichoo of course. I expect they beasties to be as neckbeardy as me or worse and I have a PP

@lanodan @raichoo Only once have I had a sound problem on Linux that wasn't fixed by removing pulseaudio.

@raichoo while I do sport a rather splendid beard the neckbeard of a *NIX neckbeard is primarily a metaphorical one :)
@raichoo

to answer your question, I need to know how you configured the firewall, your home address written in sumerian, the first 46 bytes of your hard disk, the exact verilog of your CPU, and the frequency of the ASIC running the USB port.

If you don't know all of this information, you should not be allowed to touch a dishwasher. Because we are the FreeBSD people, and this makes us all better than you.

@loweel Not getting the point and trying to push me into the defensive position. Nice try.

@loweel
1) make salty comment
2) feel clever
3) get reply
3) claim "sarcasm"
4) ???
5) Profit!!!

Let me guess, this is how most conversations go with you. Not interested.

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